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STUDIO ARCHIV
(@michaeldawson)
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@kimchi Man thats cool you noticed fabric face impact on performance. The smoother the face fabric the better snow and water slides off. 

Also 3L fabric, because of its sturdy feel makes for a smoother surface for water and snow to run off from. Less texture the better. When a fabric feels flimsy it will allow for water or snow to get trapped where it folds up. When you think of outerwear fabric like a shield it kinda makes more sense. Flimsy shield not so great, harder shell shield water runs right off.

I had to laugh when I saw the new Mine 77 styles in corduroy. basically one fall and snow would stick to you like velcro. I know it's fashion, but man no one wants to looks like frosty the snow ball after one slam on the hill.


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BFBF
 BFBF
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Posted by: @kimchi
Posted by: @oneeightnate
Posted by: @michaeldawson

@pow_hnd Thats what I recall too. Bonfire Jumped in early to support Event. In order to use Event, like with Gore and many branded fabrics, you have to sign a licensing deal that locks you into their product. When brands evaluate what branded fabric will get them the most recognition at retail, Gore is at the top. So, if you are going to pay to use the fabric technology, then they go for Gore. It's more about name recognition than true performance.

In order to even be considered by Gore they want to know how many styles you will be building with Gore and how many units of Gore product you will sell. Gore wants to sell more Gore. In an industry that is over saturated with an excess of left over product, and is concerned about its environmental footprint, Gores approach seems a bit counter intuitive.

I hope in the future the playing field for performance outdoor fabrics can be leveled. At this point Gores hold over the industry almost borders on the unhealthy for technical progression.

I noticed Billabong is doing something called Sympatex 2L now that’s claimed to be 45k/45k. I’d like to try it out for the hell of it, it’s pretty affordable. I know they’re in the Quiksilver group, though, so weary of the quality.

Sympatex has been around a long time. They apparently even have their own Wikipedia page. I don't recall hearing about them in the same class as Gore-tex, though.

45k breathability is a serious claim. Wonder how that compares to Gore-tex Pro 3L's apparently secret breathability number.

I have some lib tech bibs that I think used sympatex or some other gore competitor and they have held up well when riding in Tahoe cement over the years.  Dude I’m friends with who worked for a time at mervin said they pulled the plug on outerwear because they simply could not compete with the big boys.  I also have a lib jacket with parillo print that I’m going to wear until it disintegrates.  Both pieces look new as I’m like Spenser and generally don’t destroy hard or soft goods 

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kimchi
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Posted by: @bfbf
Posted by: @kimchi
Posted by: @oneeightnate
Posted by: @michaeldawson

@pow_hnd Thats what I recall too. Bonfire Jumped in early to support Event. In order to use Event, like with Gore and many branded fabrics, you have to sign a licensing deal that locks you into their product. When brands evaluate what branded fabric will get them the most recognition at retail, Gore is at the top. So, if you are going to pay to use the fabric technology, then they go for Gore. It's more about name recognition than true performance.

In order to even be considered by Gore they want to know how many styles you will be building with Gore and how many units of Gore product you will sell. Gore wants to sell more Gore. In an industry that is over saturated with an excess of left over product, and is concerned about its environmental footprint, Gores approach seems a bit counter intuitive.

I hope in the future the playing field for performance outdoor fabrics can be leveled. At this point Gores hold over the industry almost borders on the unhealthy for technical progression.

I noticed Billabong is doing something called Sympatex 2L now that’s claimed to be 45k/45k. I’d like to try it out for the hell of it, it’s pretty affordable. I know they’re in the Quiksilver group, though, so weary of the quality.

Sympatex has been around a long time. They apparently even have their own Wikipedia page. I don't recall hearing about them in the same class as Gore-tex, though.

45k breathability is a serious claim. Wonder how that compares to Gore-tex Pro 3L's apparently secret breathability number.

I have some lib tech bibs that I think used sympatex or some other gore competitor and they have held up well when riding in Tahoe cement over the years.  Dude I’m friends with who worked for a time at mervin said they pulled the plug on outerwear because they simply could not compete with the big boys.  I also have a lib jacket with parillo print that I’m going to wear until it disintegrates.  Both pieces look new as I’m like Spenser and generally don’t destroy hard or soft goods 

I was always a bit skeptical of Lib's stuff, for all the reasons I've said elsewhere in this thread about snowboarding outerwear. Just too many bad experiences with rider-owned apparel falling apart on me... Homeschool, Holden, Bonfire (both during the Salomon days and its current iteration), and Sessions. [ak] has held up for me the best, and like I said I have more than half-a-dozen lifetime warranty claims with them.

I've avoided Airblaster for the same reason. And I stayed faaaaaar away from the Thirtytwo stuff (sorry @michaeldawson).


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STUDIO ARCHIV
(@michaeldawson)
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@kimchi Oh no need for apologies on 32. It was def swimming upstream to get that program on any type of quality track. Plus I know that their warranty dept. was like throwing a rock into the void. 


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wonton
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@michaeldawson the only non Volcom jacket I've bought in the last few years was Volkl jacket I got on sale that is 3L 20K/20K + 2 way stretch. The fabric is bombproof and great for PNW wetness. Thicker laminate than most and has a nice slickness to it without being shiny. It uses something called Sensortex. Only prob is that it's built for skiers and you can feel the difference in the cut. But I sure wish others had the same type of textiles.


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Wes B.
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@michaeldawson Any chance you could walk us through all the steps from the design brief all the way to the finished product for an actual jacket you've worked on? 

Also, re FYI: I found this old Hypebeast interview with Tom Routh. Some good stuff in there, including this bit:

'Active membrane technologies like c_change are interesting, although I still prefer hydrophobic membranes that provide the highest level of breathability with no water absorption. In my experience, I have yet to wear a hydrophillic urethane based laminate that’s as comfortable in all conditions as a hydraphobic PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene) laminate. So in that respect, GORE and eVent are the top players in my mind. GORE is a marketing powerhouse, but it’s not just smoke and mirror’s, the product is legit. PTFE is literally Teflon based artificial skin that’s used for burn victims (GORE is bigger in the medical field than GORE-TEX is in outdoor). I’m not dissing the pine-cone, I just think simulating how skin functions is the best objective to be taken from nature.' 


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STUDIO ARCHIV
(@michaeldawson)
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@wesbourne That is a really rad article! thanks for finding it. I will def write up a jacket design walk through over the weekend. I will go with the AG Gore Highmark Anorak, but if you see another jacket on my site you would like me to walk through just let me know.


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kimchi
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WTF. I did not expect to learn something from a 12+ year old article from Hypebeast. The internet is rad sometimes.


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Wes B.
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Posted by: @michaeldawson

@wesbourne That is a really rad article! thanks for finding it. I will def write up a jacket design walk through over the weekend. I will go with the AG Gore Highmark Anorak, but if you see another jacket on my site you would like me to walk through just let me know.

Sick, looking forward to it!

I'm also curious about the process for developing graphics and branding, whether on tees or snowboards.


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BFBF
 BFBF
(@bfbf)
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45\25  sympatex bibs  

They’re pretty light but nothing like my patagucci untracked jacket which I think is 3l gore.  That thing is amazing 

 

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pow_hnd
(@pow_hnd)
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Posted by: @kimchi

Face and backing fabric also have huge implications on performance

This is why I'm not as down with the Volcom Guide stuff. While I'm not claiming AK to be the absolute cream of the crop, the Guide stuff from Volcom just doesnt work as well as the best Burton AK and I've always felt it's due to their ( volcoms ) choice in the the fabric the membrane is bonded to and their lining, especially there's a difference in the AK457 stuff with Gore-Pro and the fabrics used in those pieces. I have owned both and I'd say for resort riding the difference was negligible, but for consistant  splitboarding, when you're sweating a bunch the difference was hugely noticable between Volcom and AK457. The Fragment Design team does a great job with AK457 and Burton should use them for more of their pieces. 


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kimchi
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I wish the AK457 / [ak] Japan stuff fit me. Seems really well thought out, dope color ways that are bright but no ridiculous patterns. It’s not quite as well built as Arc, but more thoughtfully put together than any other snowboard outerwear I’ve seen. 


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Crustacean
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Is futurelight any good? Werent they claiming bigtime advance in breathability on that one?


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STUDIO ARCHIV
(@michaeldawson)
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@crustacean Reading the tech write up on the TNF site, Futurelight sounds promising. The problem is they are so vague as with a waterproof breathability rating. Its like a car company building a mind-blowing new engine, but won't tell you how much horsepower it generates- they just say its fast.

It would be helpful for outdoor consumers if all technical fabric suppliers had to submit to standardized testing and release the numbers to the public. No hype, just the numbers.


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ivo
 ivo
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Funny 10 years ago I was telling everyone Westcomb using eVent will blow out Arcteryx using Gore.

I still have their Revenant jacket, which is great and held up well. Not so with the Revenant bibs - got thrashed super easy and after issues with warranty I stopped supporting this company. Years later they offered to repair the bibs and I still haven’t sent. Thinking about this, I may try to send to see what happens.

Arcteryx has been great for me and stood behind products the few warranty claims that I have had. Full disclosure - I am in the pro list now but I was buying full price before, too. 


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