Unfortunately, I th...
 
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Unfortunately, I think that it's time we talk about Nico Muller  

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cortado
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18/06/2020 1:12 pm  
Posted by: @matty

Dear Nico: "Calling out" George Soros (who has donated over 12 BILLION dollars to philanthropies and scholarship programs aimed at helping poor people and the traditionally disenfranchised) for what?!? Because he's the latest figurehead for the centuries upon centuries-old antisemitic "the evil Jews are controlling everything" trope? Yeah. That shit makes you a bigot, and the particular flavor of your bigotry in that moment is called "antisemitism".

The racist shit is when you claim that the death of George Floyd and countless similar examples of racism-fueled police brutality are a hoax put on by the secret cabal of Jewish bankers and their international deep state in order to manipulate black people into rioting and eventually fighting in a race war to take down Western white cultures and those cultures' morally pure champion, Donald Trump. THAT is the racist shit.

But if he said that Russia put Trump in the Whitehouse, there would be no problem and he would not have lost any sponsors. Some loons on the Right have Soros conspiracy, and some on the Left have Russia conspiracy. Also, mentioning Soros is not in itself anti-semitic, just because he happens to be Jewish. I think the focus is more that he is super-rich and powerful. 

As with most loony conspiracy stuff, there's often a small grain of truth in there somewhere. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that everybody anti-Trump is trying to milk the Floyd protests/riots for all they're worth to tarnish Trump in the run up to the election. Pretty cynical to exploit somebody's death. 


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c.fuzzy
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18/06/2020 2:08 pm  
Posted by: @pow_hnd
Posted by: @c-fuzzy

a mental health issue

agree 

Posted by: @c-fuzzy

I think there's evidence that in some part we're being intentionally fucked with, divided, and turned against each other.

agree

 

I just don't believe that it's the groups that QAnon  ( or Antifa ) thinks it is.

 

I believe it's more foreign powers, I.E. Russia and China than anyone else... 

Seems to me like Qanon and Antifa are tools or signals of division. Just ask yourself if something is uniting or dividing, and to what ends. I don't see that either of these "movements" have and an achievable end goal. 

Let's go back to Cambridge Analytica to see how they're getting the data to target the "right" message at the "right" people.  Oh, right, facebook and other social media.

Of course it's foreign interests. There's proof to most all of that.

But like any good horror movie the call is coming from inside the house both by opting in as individuals, but also the way money seems to be the sole director and influence of our business, politics and personal decisions. Which, is a whole other thing.

Nationally, culturally, and individually, it seems we're being destabilized and if it's not intentional in a great degree, then it's the darndest thang.

my $.02


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pow_hnd
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19/06/2020 1:45 pm  

Looks like Oakley gave him a pink slip as well... 


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cortado
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19/06/2020 2:42 pm  

And Crabgrab. Nixon too, but that might have been before all this?


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matty
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19/06/2020 4:35 pm  
Posted by: @cortado
Posted by: @matty

Dear Nico: "Calling out" George Soros (who has donated over 12 BILLION dollars to philanthropies and scholarship programs aimed at helping poor people and the traditionally disenfranchised) for what?!? Because he's the latest figurehead for the centuries upon centuries-old antisemitic "the evil Jews are controlling everything" trope? Yeah. That shit makes you a bigot, and the particular flavor of your bigotry in that moment is called "antisemitism".

The racist shit is when you claim that the death of George Floyd and countless similar examples of racism-fueled police brutality are a hoax put on by the secret cabal of Jewish bankers and their international deep state in order to manipulate black people into rioting and eventually fighting in a race war to take down Western white cultures and those cultures' morally pure champion, Donald Trump. THAT is the racist shit.

But if he said that Russia put Trump in the Whitehouse, there would be no problem and he would not have lost any sponsors. Some loons on the Right have Soros conspiracy, and some on the Left have Russia conspiracy. Also, mentioning Soros is not in itself anti-semitic, just because he happens to be Jewish. I think the focus is more that he is super-rich and powerful. 

As with most loony conspiracy stuff, there's often a small grain of truth in there somewhere. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that everybody anti-Trump is trying to milk the Floyd protests/riots for all they're worth to tarnish Trump in the run up to the election. Pretty cynical to exploit somebody's death. 

That is an example of false equivalency:

  1. There is solid evidence of Trump-Russian/Ukrainian collusion that has been vetted and quadruple-checked by multiple reputable press organizations and law enforcement agencies (even though the process was heavily politicized). Trump's impeachment didn't fail because there wasn't sufficient evidence of collusion. Instead, it failed because public sentiment was not strong enough in favor of convicting Trump and the Republican-led Senate was unwilling to do so due to the perceived political risk.
  2. There is no such evidence behind the "Soros is part of a Jewish banker-led deep state conspiracy that is secretly working towards a New World Order through dangerous 5G technology, racial tension manipulation, etc".
  3. Multiple people have been tried and convicted on the Russia collusion stuff. So far, at least 9  people have either been convicted or pled guilty due to charges that arose from Mueller's investigation. The only similar event in modern American political history is the Watergate affair.

There are very real conspiracies and corruption out there, but they're not fantastical Hollywood plots involving multi-generational secret shadow governments. Instead, they usually involve smaller, simpler situations in which rich and powerful people try to extend their wealth and power at the cost of those who are poorer and less powerful. The conspiracies often fall apart because of the inherently selfish and greedy natures of the co-conspirators and/or their reliance on others to actually carry out the actions needed to further their goals. Watergate is again a perfect example.


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black bnr32
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19/06/2020 6:59 pm  

I recommend attempting to to debate Mr Muller in private.  Perhaps that could actually help change his views.  That’s what we actually care about right?  


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matty
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20/06/2020 12:58 am  
Posted by: @blackbnr32

I recommend attempting to to debate Mr Muller in private.  Perhaps that could actually help change his views.  That’s what we actually care about right?  

Nico is putting his shit out in public in an attempt to spread his beliefs. As those beliefs have increasingly encompassed racism and antisemitism alongside promoting distrust of Science-based medicine and encouraging not participating in quarantine efforts during a global pandemic, I think that it is important to challenge Nico's statements in the forums where he is making them.


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black bnr32
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20/06/2020 9:38 am  

I think that ain’t gonna do shit.  Possibly even make it worse.


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matty
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20/06/2020 4:28 pm  

I disagree. 

Already, because people challenged Nico's statements on Instagram and Facebook, Nico dug in, made a scene, lost his sponsors - and as a result multiple snowboard outlets/media folks/pros have covered the story and included in that coverage at least some discussion of Nico's conspiracy theories and related racist/antisemitic/etc arguments. Whitelines, Snowboarder, and Todd Richard's Monday M.A.S.S. podcast are just a few of the places that you can find media/press coverage. Austin Smith has made Instagram statements. Hana Beaman just posted something about belief in conspiracy theories being related to a lack of critical thinking.

All of that action and resulting discussion, which started with people challenging Nico in public forums, is being put in front of an audience who otherwise would just be hearing conspiracy theories from Nico with no critique or context and might be that much more likely to not look into the full extent of those theories and therefore also be that much more likely to believe that they are true.

I do not follow any reasoning that publicly challenging bigotry-based conspiracy theories is at best a useless exercise and might even make things worse. How does that work?


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cortado
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20/06/2020 4:59 pm  

@matty it's a useless exercise because the person you are challenging is never going to back down in a public forum. And, if his current thoughts are due to some group influence of people he's involved with, then he is only going to try to dig in harder to prove his commitment to the group. (Part of how cults work, no matter how wacky the ideas, you prove your loyalty to the cult by standing by your beliefs publicly even when presented with compelling contradictory evidence). 

If you're concerned that some naive people will see his posts and get sucked in, well, they are beyond help anyway. I've seen his posts, I'm not sucked in (not because anybody sat me down and showed me otherwise but because I have a good level of education and I've read fairly widely). 

How come Kazu Kokubo gets to break the law of his home country and keep his sponsors? 

This post was modified 2 months ago by cortado

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nmb
 nmb
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20/06/2020 5:31 pm  

are you comparing weed to racism? lol


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89c51
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21/06/2020 1:06 am  
Posted by: @cortado

How come Kazu Kokubo gets to break the law of his home country and keep his sponsors? 

Its all about the image companies are trying to promote. Noone cares about weed in snowboarding. The fact that kazu got caught its a japan/his own issue.

TBH i doubt nico understands there is racism behind the bullshit that come out of him mouth.


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Spenser
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21/06/2020 1:10 am  

The attempt to compare the Kazu & Nico situations made me laugh. Wow.


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cortado
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21/06/2020 1:17 am  

I'm not saying they are directly equivalent, but in one case the sponsored rider has actually broken a law, whereas in the other the rider has done something that people find offensive. 

If we're worried about 'the kids' then getting arrested for drugs is pretty bad. 


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SG Boarder
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21/06/2020 2:05 am  
Posted by: @cortado

@matty it's a useless exercise because the person you are challenging is never going to back down in a public forum. And, if his current thoughts are due to some group influence of people he's involved with, then he is only going to try to dig in harder to prove his commitment to the group. (Part of how cults work, no matter how wacky the ideas, you prove your loyalty to the cult by standing by your beliefs publicly even when presented with compelling contradictory evidence). 

You're missing the point. People can discuss his opinions and points of view with him (privately or in public) and can try to convince him to change his mind. But he's totally entitled to his opinions and points of view - he can be a racist, Nazi worshipper or whatever else in his head. That is mostly his business.

The issue is that he is spreading his vile, corrupt, and dangerous nonsense (we might never know whether these are his actual/real opinions or whether it is driven by other motives) to a wider audience. As soon as he does that, it is absolutely fair game to engage on whatever platform and in whatever way - in fact there is arguably a moral/ethical obligation to do so
And his sponsors/business partners not only have a moral considerations but also commercial motives that will factor into their responses and reactions.

Whether it is the best way to change his mind is besides the point.

Posted by: @cortado

If you're concerned that some naive people will see his posts and get sucked in, well, they are beyond help anyway. I've seen his posts, I'm not sucked in (not because anybody sat me down and showed me otherwise but because I have a good level of education and I've read fairly widely). 

Nonsense. It is hugely presumptuous and frankly offensive to say that people who are influenced by his postings are 'beyond help'. It is effectively saying that there is no need or basis for public discourse and political dialogue.

Posted by: @cortado

How come Kazu Kokubo gets to break the law of his home country and keep his sponsors? 

Because his sponsors have decided so, as is very much their prerogative. Presumably because their assessment is that his actions do not cause them (too much) commercial downside and/or because they find his actions less objectionable than Nico's. That is entirely their call.

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by SG Boarder

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