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tp1_kenobi
(@tp1kenobi)
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15/07/2020 6:26 pm  
Posted by: @highme

Again, you don't have to visit if you don't agree. I totally understand and harbor no ill will to people who no longer want to "patronize" this site because of my decisions. 

I normally wouldn't address any of this thread, but this is the internet.  People will say things to get under your skin and provoke reactions.  There is no internet police who will go and moderate unless there are T&C's that enforces people to behave a certain way to be part of this forum.  Maybe a general rules and guidelines for behavior would be something that people can be across. 

Yes I get that you built this off your back and I appreciate the medium to get all my snowboarding fixes and info. However, using a heavy hand to start moderating and blocking view points and how those view points are delivered isn't the way imo.  Yeah there's some vile shit posted, but let the audience who are part of this forum sort it out.    It's a core community with all of it's great things and warts.  People will have their own beliefs.  Regardless of what they are, silencing anyone just reinforces them.


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coleslawed
(@coleslawed)
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15/07/2020 8:54 pm  

eh, highme has been pretty clear what his “terms & conditions” are. don’t be a bigot, and don’t be a dick. 

it does seems that a few people are feeling out the edges of those parameters, maybe jokingly, but I guess they won’t find out where that line is until they cross it and highme has had enough. in which case, don’t toe the line if you don’t wanna get banned. 

there’s also some language barrier and cultural differences happening, but it’s harder to defend those when people double down on their stances. 


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SG Boarder
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15/07/2020 8:57 pm  
Posted by: @highme

Again, you don't have to visit if you don't agree. I totally understand and harbor no ill will to people who no longer want to "patronize" this site because of my decisions. 

Yea, absolutely your call how to run this site. Just offering my opinion and inputs as a member. You can take it into account or disregard it - or consider it and still decide differently. Totally your prerogative.

 


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c.fuzzy
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Posts: 1664
16/07/2020 8:02 am  

An issue here, as I see it, (not to repeat my concerns about divisive movement and language that has no end goals besides polarization of people itself) is that we're already aware of the talking points of these seemingly opposing positions and bringing them up incites the radicalized emotional responses we're being conditioned to have.

The conversation we're having here is the same one that is being promulgated through all social networks and media channels and we're just regurgitating it and getting the same fukking responses and reactions. 

Whatever ideological position we have, and whatever the conversation is, at this time it seems like people have dug in their heels and aren't going to be coming together on this shit.

I don't hear, in any of the discussions, that there's a meeting in the middle and when I ask myself why. Why is there no middle ground? Well... I've already made my views known on that. It isn't an accident.

And in that light, lets just talk about the things that bring us the most joy...dickholes, dick shapes, short fatties and sidehit trannys.


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matty
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17/07/2020 10:59 am  

I find it hard to think that there's some kind of compromise or middle ground on issues of racism or sexual assault. What would those compromises potentially look like to you @c-fuzzy?


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c.fuzzy
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17/07/2020 12:09 pm  
Posted by: @matty

I find it hard to think that there's some kind of compromise or middle ground on issues of racism or sexual assault. What would those compromises potentially look like to you @c-fuzzy?

Well now I have to decide if you're seriously asking me or if this is in jest, because it perfectly illustrates to a T what I've been saying. I'm thinking that's what you meant... to point out in an ironic way?

Because, right....it's clear there's absolutely no way I was implying there's a middle ground on what is easily identifiable as wrong. I'm not supporting anything bigoted or abusive. But firstly, that I was talking about the nature of divisive discourse itself and our ability to see each others points of view.

And secondly, it pulls the discussion into a territory in which a discussion cannot be had because we end up defending a position which wasn't even implied, and then the discussion becomes about how to even have the discussion instead of understanding each other. There's absolutely nothing that can be said further. 

This to me, is the actual issue. Here we are with the quintessential "gotcha" tactic which takes out of context the view being brought to light, and interprets it into an automatic "win" visavis an untouchable topic. 

So, kudos on the cleverness @matty. I sure do hope that was your intent.

 

Edit: We're stuck in a pattern of discourse on which the tactics have locked us out of the ability to establish even the nature of agreeable discourse, let alone come to meet on agreements of facts that apply to actual issues.

The rule of a good rule is that the ones making it also would want to be held to it. And we have a situation where both sides are playing by the rule that whatever they make up is real.

If whatever we make up is real. If there's no reality... not rule... and everything is just construct and up to interpretation... both sides are going to make up whatever they want. We will continue to fail in discourse and fail to see or hear each other until we're the fucking bloods and crypts just killing each other to score meaningless points.

And imo that's what is happening.

This post was modified 2 months ago by c.fuzzy

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Velvet Hammer
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17/07/2020 12:39 pm  
Posted by: @highme
Posted by: @89c51
Posted by: @highme

Believe Victims.

 

That's what I propose. That's the easiest, most productive step you as an individual can do.

 

This solves nothing. What anyone believes doesn't affect the opinion of the judges and whoever decides the outcome of a case. I can scream all day on any platform/medium in favor of anyone but if the facts in the courtroom are for or against him the outcome will be decided by them.

 

Posted by: @highme

 

If you continue to insist on clutching your pearls that some guy might be falsely accused, when all the data on the subject indicates only a small percentage of rape is even reported, then I can only surmise you're biggest concern is that it might become more difficult to get away with rape in the future.

 

 

I can't tell if the above is your style of arguing and trying to demean the person you are having a conversation with or you just like to imagine stuff like that but in any case i won't follow along.

The more we get into this the more i get to the conclusion that is a cultural difference we are arguing on and i doubt there is any common ground. And i get that. We are born in different continents, probably had different upbringing, have different experiences in life, the current situations are probably different and all that affect the views we have on certain issues or in general. 

However i am not going to put on the side -just to give you an answer that satisfies you- things that i believe are fundamental human rights -and pillars of a modern society- like the presumption of innocence or the right for a fair trial. And its totaly fine to have different views on the above and want justice to be served in a different way than what we have now. Its just that i wont support it or endorse it. Like i do with  many things that i believe are flawed in other cultures.

 

Sorry, I was about to reply to the 2nd half of this, then saw the top of that starts with "'believing victims' solves nothing" and I'm sorry your culture is ok with rape. Fuck off, you're not welcome here.

That is quite the jump saying he is ok with rape. 


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matty
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17/07/2020 1:15 pm  
Posted by: @c-fuzzy
Posted by: @matty

I find it hard to think that there's some kind of compromise or middle ground on issues of racism or sexual assault. What would those compromises potentially look like to you @c-fuzzy?

Well now I have to decide if you're seriously asking me or if this is in jest, because it perfectly illustrates to a T what I've been saying. I'm thinking that's what you meant... to point out in an ironic way?

Because, right....it's clear there's absolutely no way I was implying there's a middle ground on what is easily identifiable as wrong. I'm not supporting anything bigoted or abusive. But firstly, that I was talking about the nature of divisive discourse itself and our ability to see each others points of view.

And secondly, it pulls the discussion into a territory in which a discussion cannot be had because we end up defending a position which wasn't even implied, and then the discussion becomes about how to even have the discussion instead of understanding each other. There's absolutely nothing that can be said further. 

This to me, is the actual issue. Here we are with the quintessential "gotcha" tactic which takes out of context the view being brought to light, and interprets it into an automatic "win" visavis an untouchable topic. 

So, kudos on the cleverness @matty. I sure do hope that was your intent.

 

Edit: We're stuck in a pattern of discourse on which the tactics have locked us out of the ability to establish even the nature of agreeable discourse, let alone come to meet on agreements of facts that apply to actual issues.

The rule of a good rule is that the ones making it also would want to be held to it. And we have a situation where both sides are playing by the rule that whatever they make up is real.

If whatever we make up is real. If there's no reality... not rule... and everything is just construct and up to interpretation... both sides are going to make up whatever they want. We will continue to fail in discourse and fail to see or hear each other until we're the fucking bloods and crypts just killing each other to score meaningless points.

And imo that's what is happening.

Well, as far as I am aware, the especially contentious conversations as of late in these forums have been about racism and sexual assault. Highme clearly stated that he was no longer going to provide a forum for people on one side of those discussions. Among various other forum members' responses to Highme's statements about that, you identified that you thought that the issue that needs to be addressed is that there is a lack of civil discourse around topics such as these and, in your words:

Posted by: @c-fuzzy

I don't hear, in any of the discussions, that there's a meeting in the middle and when I ask myself why. Why is there no middle ground?

If the problem is a lack of civil discourse, and the thing that such discourse could provide would be a unifying middle ground, then it might be helpful to identify what a middle ground on the issues at hand in this thread (racism and sexual assault/rape) might look like. Isn't that conversation in service of what you're asking for?

Also, I did not have any of the motives that you assigned to me. This isn't an attempt at a gotcha moment - and I am not sure how assuming that my motives are negative or cynical is in service of seeking civil discourse and the sharing of ideas. In doing so, you might be participating in the very tactics that you identify to preclude "agreeable discourse"?


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c.fuzzy
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17/07/2020 2:08 pm  
Posted by: @matty
Posted by: @c-fuzzy
Posted by: @matty

I find it hard to think that there's some kind of compromise or middle ground on issues of racism or sexual assault. What would those compromises potentially look like to you @c-fuzzy?

Well now I have to decide if you're seriously asking me or if this is in jest, because it perfectly illustrates to a T what I've been saying. I'm thinking that's what you meant... to point out in an ironic way?

Because, right....it's clear there's absolutely no way I was implying there's a middle ground on what is easily identifiable as wrong. I'm not supporting anything bigoted or abusive. But firstly, that I was talking about the nature of divisive discourse itself and our ability to see each others points of view.

And secondly, it pulls the discussion into a territory in which a discussion cannot be had because we end up defending a position which wasn't even implied, and then the discussion becomes about how to even have the discussion instead of understanding each other. There's absolutely nothing that can be said further. 

This to me, is the actual issue. Here we are with the quintessential "gotcha" tactic which takes out of context the view being brought to light, and interprets it into an automatic "win" visavis an untouchable topic. 

So, kudos on the cleverness @matty. I sure do hope that was your intent.

 

Edit: We're stuck in a pattern of discourse on which the tactics have locked us out of the ability to establish even the nature of agreeable discourse, let alone come to meet on agreements of facts that apply to actual issues.

The rule of a good rule is that the ones making it also would want to be held to it. And we have a situation where both sides are playing by the rule that whatever they make up is real.

If whatever we make up is real. If there's no reality... not rule... and everything is just construct and up to interpretation... both sides are going to make up whatever they want. We will continue to fail in discourse and fail to see or hear each other until we're the fucking bloods and crypts just killing each other to score meaningless points.

And imo that's what is happening.

Well, as far as I am aware, the especially contentious conversations as of late in these forums have been about racism and sexual assault. Highme clearly stated that he was no longer going to provide a forum for people on one side of those discussions. Among various other forum members' responses to Highme's statements about that, you identified that you thought that the issue that needs to be addressed is that there is a lack of civil discourse around topics such as these and, in your words:

Posted by: @c-fuzzy

I don't hear, in any of the discussions, that there's a meeting in the middle and when I ask myself why. Why is there no middle ground?

If the problem is a lack of civil discourse, and the thing that such discourse could provide would be a unifying middle ground, then it might be helpful to identify what a middle ground on the issues at hand in this thread (racism and sexual assault/rape) might look like. Isn't that conversation in service of what you're asking for?

Also, I did not have any of the motives that you assigned to me. This isn't an attempt at a gotcha moment - and I am not sure how assuming that my motives are negative or cynical is in service of seeking civil discourse and the sharing of ideas. In doing so, you might be participating in the very tactics that you identify to preclude "agreeable discourse"?

My comments are in defense of no person or idea or ideal. I have my personal views and to my estimate they much more align with yours @matty than the opposing.

But my post was commentary on the nature of discourse and has been because this is where I see the biggest issue.

I shouldn't have to defend myself against allegations of supporting egregious wrongs because I point out that I see a flaw in the nature of the discourse. 

To say that we meet in the middle isn't to say that there's a middle ground on rape or racism. It's to say that we have quit the bullshit of turning things into whatever opportunity to score points for our "team".

There's no desire in my heart or mind to lend myself or support to hatred, malice, or whatever. And it's just not true about me or what I'm saying to suggest I am directly or indirectly because I choose to suggest there's other ways to look at the repetition of failure in our discourse... besides one side the the enemy.

A big part of the problem here is we've been divided and each side is pointing at the other as the villain and themselves as a victim. Both sides using the language of victimization. An indoctrination into self view as victims... and the opposing side as the perpetrators. 

Again, ffs, I'm not defending actual victimization and systemic hated or anything of the sort.

I'm pointing out something entirely different which isn't that, but is being contorted for other purposes and means.

My $.02

And I'm done talking about it here. I'm tired of it and I wish only love and positive actualization for all.


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matty
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17/07/2020 2:19 pm  

I never thought or said that you were on some other side from me - and I definitely am not trying to paint a picture that you support some horrible bigotry or violence. It's also probably worth mentioning that I certainly don't consider myself a victim.

I am simply trying to participate in a civil discourse with you about whether or not there is a possible middle ground about particularly divisive subjects. That's it. I actually thought that I was doing what you wanted!


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MarkusM
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17/07/2020 10:37 pm  

having a different fist language then english and being dyslexic makes me read everything 3 or 4 times just to make sure i get whats being said.

faking missunderstanding and quoting out of context seems to be what you do these days.

and i guess i have to clarify im just talking about online communication in general. 

my grand dad used to say -"you never reach understanding by attacking"


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casjcade
(@casjcade)
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18/07/2020 7:23 am  

I think some real fist language would beat the endless trolling being done in here these days.


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c.fuzzy
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20/07/2020 8:54 am  
Posted by: @matty

I never thought or said that you were on some other side from me - and I definitely am not trying to paint a picture that you support some horrible bigotry or violence. It's also probably worth mentioning that I certainly don't consider myself a victim.

I am simply trying to participate in a civil discourse with you about whether or not there is a possible middle ground about particularly divisive subjects. That's it. I actually thought that I was doing what you wanted!

It wasn't clear to me what your intent was and I had said as much. But if I got it all wrong then I apologize. 

I had a post in the Nico dumpster fire thread where I haphazardly tried to describe my thoughts on some of this. It was probably not well put together and I could probably do better, but idk that anyone really wants to hear it. so. 


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c.fuzzy
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07/08/2020 7:25 am  

onthesnow.com shutting down

Ski and snowboard enthusiasts from around the world:

We have been proud to provide you with free access to snow reports, resort guides and more, and we are beyond grateful for your readership and contributions to our community over the years.

Unfortunately given the changing media landscape, Mountain News Corporation has experienced financial declines in recent years. With additional economic challenges from the COVID-19 pandemic now facing our business, it is not financially viable to continue operating.

Mountain News Corporation and our OnTheSnow and Skiinfo websites will be shutting down. We will explore the possibility of selling, partnering, or contributing assets to another media outlet if there is an opportunity to allow for a consistent or enhanced online experience. For inquiries about Mountain News Corporation, please email Feedback_OTS@mountainnews.com.

We want to thank our loyal employees for their tireless work over the years to bring great information to all of you. We take comfort knowing that our collective passion for the sport of skiing and snowboarding will certainly live on.

We’ll see you on the mountain.

 

– Mountain News Corporation


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GD
 GD
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10/08/2020 9:19 pm  

Looks like it's just gonna be Angry/Avran now, Kevin's moving on to something diff, supposedly.

Also, seems like Angry's mellowed out a bit more these days. Or could just be this vid 🤷🏻‍♂️ lol.


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